Let’s Talk

23rd February, 2004

I want to know how you feel about what San Francisco is doing with regard to same-sex marriage, and what the California State government is doing in its effort to quash it. Oh, and of course, what do you think of Governor “Awnold’s” remarks about it, as well as other opponents’ course of action?

Personally? I think what the State of California is doing is wrong, and they should let San Francisco do whatever San Fran wants to do. It never ceases to amaze me at how judgmental and “territorial” people can be. I just don’t understand the “I have these rights and benefits under the law, but you can’t have them because you’re not exactly like me and choose not to live your life like me, and will NEVER get them unless you DO decide to live like me” attitude. It totally sucks. And some of the things “The Gov” said are completely ridiculous! I wish people would get a clue.

How do you feel about it? And be nice. ;) There’s no reason why adults who are smart and civilized enough to realize how cool blogging is to resort to insulting each other. ;)

Filed under Blatantly Speaking

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21 Responses to “Let’s Talk”

  1. Patrick
    February 23rd, 2004 at 2:13 pm

    Well obviously being a gay man, I have a very strong interest in these events as they are unfolding. I worry that if I get a partner in life, I won’t be able to visit them in the hospital, retire, get the house in the event he dies, or a multitude of other things.
    I’m glad a political figure took a stand and stood up for what he believed in, but I think what he’s done will be detrimental to the future of any recognition of gay marriages/relationships. Currently the US constitution has a full faith and credit clause. This means that one state must honor the laws of another state. So…if I get married in MA, or CA, Ohio has to honor my marriage. Thus…if I go to court (and this would go to the supreme court) I would actually invalidate the “defense of marriage laws” in 37 states, as well as the Federal Defense of Marriage act…unless their is an Ammendment to the Constitution. Currently…the majority of the US population does not think I should be allowed to get married. I’ve made a living learning to read what a “mass” of people think. I’m very worried that an ammendment will pass. If this happened 15 years from now…an ammendment may not pass.

    This of course makes me wonder though. What are people so afraid of in the first place? It’s not like heterosexual marriages are doing that well, with a 70% divorce rate. Reality television has shown us that you can get engaged after only a short few weeks, having never met the person before, or even just “marry a millionare” and love is not necessary or required.

    If love isn’t a requirement of marriage, then I’m not sure I want to get married at all. I’d rather have a relationship that is truely special, and have it with someone that I look forward to sharing all the bad and good times with.

    Thanks for asking. Patrick

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  2. Beverly
    February 23rd, 2004 at 2:30 pm

    I believe that everyone falls in love once in their life… with whom is no big deal to me. I am “conventional” in my relationship, in that I fell in love with a wonderful man… we’ve been married for 28 yrs this comming September. There are those who fall in love with persons of the same sex, and that’s as it should be for them… God loves us for who we are, not who we marry.
    Does that make sense, Patrick?

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  3. Debbie
    February 23rd, 2004 at 6:06 pm

    I’m not saying anything. *zipping my mouth* ;) *unzipping*… ‘onya Arnie!!!!! *grin*

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  4. Niche
    February 23rd, 2004 at 7:14 pm

    Took the Words Out of My Mouth

    I don’t normally take political stands on things here on my blog. This one I just couldn’t pass up. Even though This is in California, the same can be said about Georgia.

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  5. Leigh
    February 23rd, 2004 at 7:31 pm

    Patrick, I am so glad you weighed in on this. You are much more knowledgable about the laws of the country regarding same-sex marriage than I, so I am very grateful for the information you’ve provided here. It’s all so confusing to me, and very sad. It’s just simply not right. You make a very insightful point with regard to marriage seemingly not holding much “sanctity factor” anymore, given the ease with which we “play” for it on game shows. I had never thought of that before, and it is a very valid point! As you said, what are people so afraid of, anyway?? Afraid of 2 people loving each other?? It boggles my mind. Thank you, again, for your thoughts on this subject. If you are ever inclined to offer more, feel free! *grin* (((HUGS)))

    Bev, what you said makes perfect sense. I wish everyone thought like you! Love you!

    Debbie, I can’t believe we actually disagree on something! Well, I guess it had to happen someday, eh? *wink* Love you oodles, anyway! LOL! ((((huggers))))

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  6. Leslie
    February 23rd, 2004 at 8:25 pm

    One would really think that by 2004, with the madness that is in this world, that we would be just a little more advanced and would welcome love, respect and companionship with open arms and not make it illegal to recognize it by law.

    If that statistic is correct (70% divorce rate) then there will be precious few new marriages intact in 20 years anyway. Far too many enter into it on a whim; to say ‘no’ to those who take it seriously is just wrong.

    Live and let live.

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  7. Leigh
    February 23rd, 2004 at 10:15 pm

    Right on, Sista! Extremely well-said, Leslie! Thank you!

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  8. Patrick
    February 24th, 2004 at 8:37 am

    Well first of all, your welcome, and I thank you for bringing up one of the “taboo” subjects. You just happened to get someone that has a vested interest.

    Several times I have heard opponents of gay relationships and marriage say that we shouldn’t leaglize gay marriage becuase it:

  9. promotes the spread of AIDS- The first AIDS cases were discoverd in France in hetersexuals that had been working abroad in Africa. True…anal sex is considered high risk, but so is vaginal sex…not to mention the highest infection rate is with the heterosexual population in Africa.
  10. Gays are promiscuious- well so are some straight people. Wouldn’t the promotion of committed relationships also reduce that promiscuity with the same population that is condemned?
  11. Religious institutions would be forced to perform the ceremonies- actually this is untrue. For the same reason that a Jewish Synagog can refuse to marry two catholics, as the ceremony would go against their own religion.
  12. gay people can’t procreate- According to the erectile disfunction commercials…neither can millions of hetersexual men. Does this mean that all men should give a sperm sample to prove that they are fertile before getting married? Should we annul the marriages of couples when the 1/2 is no longer able to procreate.
  13. The gay agenda of recruiting would be furthered.- ok…tell me what is a selling point for recruitment. We have no rights, and everyone hates us. Please….come along and join me…live in my personal hell…with Madonna! Seriously though…I never “chose” to be gay. I just was, and knew if from the time I was 6.

    Beverly…what you said, makes perfect sense. I do belive that love is rare, and regardless of the sex of the person you find it with, you cherish it. Congratulations on makeing your marriage last so long.

    Leslie-If only a larger portion of the population felt as you do…Then maybe every school would have more than enough money and the defense department would be holding bake sales.

    Debbie- First…kudo’s go to you for indicating your opinion on the matter. Obvioulsly you have been outnumberd in the discussion so far (although we both know that you are far from out numbered in society in general), and speaking up isn’t always easy. I’d love to hear your reasons for disagreeing with me, as it helps both of us improve our rhetoric on the subject. We would probably never sway each other’s opinions, but we can learn to respect them. Peace to all of you.
    Patrick

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  14. sarah
    February 24th, 2004 at 11:54 am

    Those are some of the weakest arguements against anything I have ever heard and make these vocal opponents sound ignorant!

    Combining arguements one and two, promiscuity and spreading the AIDS virus, isn’t marriage supposed to be a committed monogamous relationship? How then would AIDS be spread? Not to mention that “one in every four new infections with HIV in the U.S. and abroad is in someone under 20 years old.” Straight or gay. And how the hell are two people who are committed to one another promiscuous? Jeez, straight couples cheat on one another all the time too.

    The arguement that religions would be forced to conduct gay marriges is, to me, just stupid. Seperation of church and state means that the law can’t force a religion to perform marriages contrary to their beliefs.

    As for the procreation arguement, there are straight couples out there who can’t or won’t procreate. Should we now require fertility tests before issuing a marriage license to anyone? Must we sign a contract that we will reproduce?

    And as you said, Patrick, the “gay agenda” is a myth. No one chooses to be discriminated against.

    We’re all human, regardless of who we happen to love. We should all be granted the same rights and priveledges.

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  15. Leigh
    February 24th, 2004 at 12:04 pm

    *applauding Sarah* Again, I say RIGHT ON!!

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  16. Debbie
    February 24th, 2004 at 10:05 pm

    please don’t get me wrong. I have NOTHING against gay people. In fact, I know of some very nice gay people. Call me old-fashioned…but I believe wedlock is for a man and woman. “I pronounce you man and wife!” Perhaps I’m being a little too old-fashioned, but that’s just the way I feel.
    Love you oodles too, Leigh. (((hugs))) And Patrick, thank you!

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  17. Rae
    February 25th, 2004 at 8:59 am

    *peeking out very carefully*

    I have nothing against homosexuals, but I have a lot of problems with what I call “judicial leglislation”. By that I mean a judge re-writing/re-interpreting law to fulfill an agenda without a vote by the constituents. I’m in NM, as we have a county clerk here that is also issuing same-sex marriage licenses, and what ticks me off is that it is a highly controversial topic in which no voices are considered. I think it’s dangerous to have one city flout state law, even though there are exemptions for that in most city charters. My objections to what’s going on is mainly on legal grounds, I think it’s just as shoved through and hurried as anything anyone ever criticized Bush of doing.

    I also think the “gay marriage amendment” that’s currently in Congress just got new life breathed into it as a backlash against this. There is a perceived need for a definition of marriage, and the perceived defiance by local authorities are making the “feds” nervous. I think what’s happening at the moment is a power struggle between local and federal authorities with gay marriage being used as an excuse.

    I know this is long, and I apologize, but in the end, I feel that homosexuals at the moment are being horribly used in an election year power play. By both sides.

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  18. Leigh
    February 25th, 2004 at 2:32 pm

    Rae, please don’t apologize for the length of your comment — I think it’s wonderful. Everyone seems to be bringing to light so many things I’ve never even thought of; it’s a great education for me.

    I have to say that I agree with you with regard to the political power play, and the gay community being the pawn. It’s very, very sad, and very wrong. I believe Patrick eluded to the same thing in his earlier comments. Just one more reason why I hate politics so much!

    Thanks, again, for your input!

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  19. xade
    February 25th, 2004 at 4:52 pm

    There was a list going round the internet a little while ago. Pretty much sums up my opinion on this topic.

    1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.

    2. Heterosexual marriages are valid becasue they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can’t legally get married because the world needs more children.

    3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

    4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if Gay marriage is allowed, since Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

    5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; women are property, blacks can’t marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

    6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.

    7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

    8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

    9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

    10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

    11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven’t adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.

    12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a “separate but equal” institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.

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  20. Debbie
    February 25th, 2004 at 5:05 pm

    Adam and Eve? Adam and Steve??? Karen and Eve??? I think I like God’s way. ;)It’s only natural! To all those gay people & bi-sexuals…please don’t take this personally. It’s just my thoughts on the subject.

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  21. sarah
    February 26th, 2004 at 12:03 pm

    Natural? Ok, we’ll talk nature. There have been documented pairs of animals of the same sex in the wild, as in, in nature. It’s rare, but it happens. Especially in marine mammals. You know, those really intelligent dolphins? Do a little research and the entire “natural” arguement flies out the window. I’ll be happy to pass along the title of a book on the subject….

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  22. April
    February 26th, 2004 at 4:01 pm

    I think that gay marriages are wrong because the Bible says that gay people are evil. I also think that it’s wrong that I can’t own slaves. The Bible sayz that’s all fine and dandy, too.

    Sarcasm aside, I think it’s good that San Francisco is offering marriages to same sex couples. I mentioned on my own blog that I don’t think the government is here to look after our supposed spiritual well-being. That’s what the church is for - and history shows that the results are dastardly when religion rules the affairs of state.

    I’m wondering if the real problem isn’t gay marriages, but people that have trouble with the concept of gay people. I think those people are misinformed that taking away a person’s rights will make them cease to be homosexual.

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  23. Debbie
    February 26th, 2004 at 7:59 pm

    Ya know what? I wish I never opened my mouth in the first place.I am truly sorry. You’re sooo right everyone. Like I said in the first place, I have NOTHING against gay people. Come to think of it…Marriage lost its real meaning years ago. There’s not too many couples out there who take marriage seriously anymore, and even regard it as just a “piece of paper.” Too bad a lot of people of today didn’t think like our grandparents and parents. Marriage is a blessig. Some couples have to work at it, while others are lucky enough to find their soulmate, breezing through life together. The whole marriage thing is important to me. Being married and raising a family is the greatest gift of all. I have no right to be against gay marriages. If I’m okay with homosexuality it doesn’t make sense that I should be against them marrying. I’m just an old-fashioned girl at heart, and marriage to me, means the union of a man and woman. But, hey…this is the year 2004. Good luck to all gay couples. Hope there are many of you who make it to 50 golden years! My parents celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary last year. And what a special day for them both. Cheers!!

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  24. Patrick
    February 27th, 2004 at 8:28 am

    Debbie,

    Obviously you’ve been a bit ganged up here…and I’m sorry for that. You have valuable opinions, and you are looking at marriage and relationships from the way you were educated (which I assume had some religious background). I was raised 1/2 Catholic (father) and 1/2 Agnostic (mother) so obviously I have a different background.

    To give you an idea of where I came from, I never was attracted to women on anything more than a friendship level. I had read (at the age of 11) books that said that most adolescents go through an expiremental phase with members of the same gender. In my own head, I figured I was going through a phase and eventually I would come around. At the age of 15, I still hadn’t felt any different, yet I went through the motions of finding a girlfriend. We eventually became intimate, but from the beginning it felt completely wrong. The same way it would feel wrong for you to explore a relationship (either sexual or emotional) with another woman.

    I can’t argue religious beliefs as I really don’t have them. I can say that my being gay has never been a choice on my part. It has made life difficult at times, but I don’t regret living my life as proudly as I can. It’s one of the reasons I am out in my comedy as well. I have been turned away from appartments, and this summer…I and another man are taking a trip to the Carribbean, but we have to research the laws as certain countries (such as Jamaica) could arrest us and place us in jail for 25 years.

    I personally would be fine with a civil union if it afforded the exact same rights as a traditional marriage. That isn’t going to happen for several reasons. Social security benefits would then have to be paid to my surviving partner (provided I ever find one) and the US government is scrambling to find the money for the new baby boomers, insurance companies would have to insure me at a lower insurance rate because I am “stable”. Singles are charged more, and any family discounts offered by businesses would then have to offer them to me. No business wants to expand discounts.

    However, I also agree with you on something. I cringe on the lables of wife and wife, or husband and husband. No reason except that we were raised to hear that as wrong. I currently know a lesbian who calls her partner her wife. I always do a double take when I hear that, but what are the other choices? Partner sounds like a business relationship, lov ers has a connotation of being of a sexual nature, spouses constitues marriage….and it ain’t fully legal yet, so what do gay people call their significant other (besides “ball and chain”)?

    To all of you, I can’t quite tell you how much I appreciate your words. I hate that my sex life has become the rallying point for the political election season. With job losses, war, racism, separation of socioeconomic classes, homelessness, obesity, poor nutrition, a budget deficit, and children buying guns and taking them to school…It’s sad to know that my love life is the number one issue. ((((hugs to all of you))))

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  25. Debbie
    February 27th, 2004 at 4:56 pm

    Patrick, please do not apologise. I really appreciate you trying to understand my views on this topic. I was not raised with religion. In fact, I’ve never even read the Bible. lol However, Mum did send me and my brothers to Sunday school for a little while, but that’s about it. Being only very little all that talk went straight over my head. I couldn’t wait to get outside to play. lol I know right from wrong. (I think ;) lol) And treating others as I like to be treated myself is important to me. So, Im sorry for getting mixed up in this discussion, Patrick. I truly do understand where you’re coming from. I have a sister who is bi-sexual and my husband’s auntie has been in a relationship with a woman for more than 40 years. And that doesn’t stop me from holding her hand or giving her hugs when she comes to visit us every year. People are people regardless of their sexual preference. But, like you said it’s the whole “wife & wife” and “husband & husband” thing that makes one cringe. We’ll have to work on that one, hey! ;) You are indeed, a very special person, Patrick. And I wish you and your “soulmate” all the best. (((hug)))

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  26. Debbie
    February 27th, 2004 at 9:36 pm

    btw, when I say I was not raised with religion, I mean that it wasn’t shoved down our throats. My background (religion) is with the Church of England(Anglican church). My husband was christened C of E. Thank God! ;) Cause my dad didn’t believe in having us kids christened.lol So when the time came to choose an anglican church to be married in, it made life easier. The minister of ‘St. Michael and All Angels’ was more than happy to have us united in marriage in his church once he seen Randall’s christening certificate. Although, if Randall had not been christened as a baby, the minister said he’d have been happy to christen one or both of us before our wedding. Could have been fun! Getting wet at the same time. ;) lol

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