OK listen, I have a few things to get off my chest.

Let me start by saying that the internet and the real world have one thing in common: THEY BOTH CONTAIN JERKS!

Look, if I had a house and you drove by and didn't like the color, then started calling me on the phone and sending me letters telling me how much you hated it and demanding I paint it, I would tell you to fuck off. I would tell you if you didn't like the color of my house, then you should stop driving the hell by! It's MY house which I pay for, and I can have it any damn color I want! Right?

Well, in my opinion, that is exactly how it is with ones web site! If you don't like what someone is saying on their blog, then you have 2 options: either respectfully and politely disagree with the owner of the blog and leave your thoughts on an alternative perspective; or leave and don't ever come back again! If someone is going to get down and dirty in your comments, then I think you have EVERY RIGHT to delete their comment and/or ban their ass from ever returning! A lot of us have our own domains which we must pay for, as well as hosting fees, so in my opinion we can do whatever we want with OUR OWN SPACE! We can set any rules we want to, and if you don't abide by them, you're history! That's OUR right! We can throw you out of our "house" if we believe it is necessary to do so!

Now, having said all that, I'll tell you why. In the blogosphere, there always seems to be some war going on somewhere. Well, recently the war came to someone who I read every single day and think a lot of! I respect her very much because she always voices her opinion on things and tells it like it is. I almost always agree with her; but even if I didn't, I would still read her because of her HONESTY. Well, some jerk decided to not only disagree with her on a certain entry of hers, but he proceeded to slam her like you wouldn't believe! And not only on her blog, but on others' blogs, too! (in the comments) Plus his buddies have taken up the cause and are now flaming her on their sites! Now how low is that!?! And what is the result of this flaming? She's stopped blogging. I am SO MAD about this! The jerk and his "friends" have hurt her so badly and scared her so much that she's stopped blogging until the Blogathon. THIS ISN'T RIGHT!! But you know what the worst part is? This guy is probably grinning from ear to ear knowing he closed her down! Seriously, how Junior High is that! Oxymoronic says it much better than I, though. My emotions are getting in the way of truly meaningful articulation at the moment!

Why do people have to be so damn mean sometimes?? You know, there's been plenty of times that I read entries on blogs that I totally disagree with, or that flat-out make me angry, and you know what I do? I go away! I don't leave a comment because what I have to say at that moment would serve no purpose other than to make someone else angry, and possibly start something that isn't worth the time it takes to type out! Don't these people have lives??? Do they really get their jollies from starting wars like that?? I mean ... WHAT'S UP WITH THAT!!!???

I'm just very angry right now, and decided that if I was going to vent, I would do it in MY OWN SPACE! I have that right, dammit! And so does every other blogger out there! And if you don't like it, tough!!

You are so right! I think I need to put a disclaimer on mine to that effect, when I feel like blasting off.

Thoughtfully shared by: Beverly at July 10, 2003 06:51 AM

I must say, I agree.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 06:57 AM

I'm sure you do agree, Geoffrey. I don't think there is any blogger out there who would not agree that we all have the right to voice our opinion on our own blogs. However, it crosses the line of responsible blogging when you slander and defame another, calling them disgusting names and flat-out saying they have a mental problem, and allowing those who comment to say even worse things. Out in the real world we're not allowed to slander another without facing consequences. One of these days you're going to say the wrong thing about the wrong person and you'll be sued so fast your head will spin. Laws apply even in cyberspace. I think it would behoove you to remember that.

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 03:03 PM

well said leigh...im glad i am a quiet little poster who rarely gets noticed lol i can wander and ramble and it jsut doesnt matter:) that is the joy of my blog:)))

hugs dear friend love ya to pieces:)

Thoughtfully shared by: fae at July 10, 2003 06:04 PM

oh min, you always matter! :)))

love you right back! :)

(((hugs)))

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 06:12 PM

Again, I agree. Slandering is wrong. I speak either the truth, or my opinion. That is something I'm entitled to.

I also let anyone speak their opinion on my page. Even if I don't agree. Including you. I don't edit them to suit my needs, as some people do.

Thanks for the warning, by the way, I appreciate your interest.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 07:12 PM

She didn't edit them, Geoffrey, and she's put it all back up just to prove it (which is sad that you all said things that made her feel like she had something to prove). As I've said before, there's a line between voicing ones opinion and actually slandering and defaming another. In my opinion, you all crossed that line.

You're welcome for the warning. Hope you heed it.

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 07:20 PM

Of course I'll heed it. However, it's fortunate that personal opinion blogs are just that, personal opinions. Therefore, they don't fall under slander laws, since everyone is entitled to an opinion.

As for the editing, yes, she did. She edited and changed the content of several posts. Maybe she's changed them back, I don't know, I don't go to her page anymore. However, they were edited. I still have the originals in email replies that she has sent me.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 07:41 PM

oh sure, one can voice their personal opinion about anyone and anything on their blog -- in a general sense; but when you start naming names and linking to them, and saying things like they are a "nut case" and are in need of serious help, that crosses the line. the thing that i don't understand is, why? why do you even want to do that to someone? it's not enough that you've upset them on their own blog in their own space, but you have to ridicule them and call them nasty names on your own blog, too??? it's just so mean. isn't there enough of that shit in the real world? geez. plus, from what i understand (correct me if i'm wrong, please), she was a regular reader of yours, and you of hers. it's bad enough to be flamed by someone you don't even know, but you two were well-acquainted with one another through your blogs. that really bites!

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 07:51 PM

I agree. I was rather shocked at the whole turn of events.

First, I was shocked when she called me a hate monger.
Then, I was shocked when she edited my comments on her blog.
I was shocked yet again by the emails she sent me.

Then, I made my post. Not before.

I'm a straight shooter. I say it like it is. Many people can't handle that, and I understand. You shouldn't read my blog then. I generally try to respect the tone of other people's blogs, also, just as I've tried to respect yours. I'm sure you've noticed my comments here have been extremely tame compared to on my blog. I try to respect the atmosphere of others' web pages.

Again, I do believe that she either needs to get some help, or just stop blogging. She's far to emotionally involved for her to be enjoying this. That's just my opinion, it may not be yours.

Another solution would be for her to just post neutral topics. Everyone on the internet knows that a topic of homosexuality is going to get heated. I've yet to see one that doesn't. Or remove comments entirely, that's an option also. I would say she could just delete posts she doesn't agree with, but she'd still have to read them, so she'd still be upset.

People can do what they want, on or off my webpage. The only time I take it to posts is if I either know you can keep it seperate, or you've burned every bridge with me and I don't care anyway. She burned her bridges with me with her comment edits and insulting emails.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 08:04 PM

Rather than "too emotionally involved", I'd say she is very passionate about what she believes, and about what she will and will not allow on her blog. We all have boundaries, right? When she asked that her boundaries not be crossed, it was not respected by everyone. Gordon ... well, he's not even worth talking about.

There are things about which I am extremely passionate, and will go to the nth degree to defend. Aren't you? She simply asked one thing -- do not use the words "pedophilia" or "beastiality" in your argument. Why couldn't that request be respected?? It's just such a pity that once one insult is thrown out there, it snowballs from there and then everyone has to join the bandwagon. I guess everyone loves a fight, but damn ... real people get hurt in the process.

*sigh* I don't know .... it all just seems so wrong, and so mean. I've seen comments on your blog for your entry about all this where people call her terrible names -- I mean really awful names! Why do you allow that to happen. Doesn't that just add fuel to the fire? Didn't all the insults you threw and others threw in your comments only serve to perpetuate the cycle? Isn't anyone adult enough to stop it instead?

I think she's making a real effort to do just that. She, at least, is taking responsibility for what she feels was her contribution in what happened. Is anyone else going to? I think that is the burning question right now. But I won't be surprised if all the others say "who, me? i didn't do anything wrong!"

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 08:24 PM

If you'd rather take this to email, just send me one.

Several things you said don't make sense to me, or you are misinformed. I obviously can't speak for Gordon, just myself.

I have an open blog, people say what they want. You say she has every right to say what she wants on her blog, then you criticize me for saying what I want on mine.

You admonish me for calling her names, and allowing other people too, yet you call me names in your post. It makes no sense.

You say I shouldn't perpetuate the cycle, then you make this entry on your blog, and you weren't even involved.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to do any of the things I've mentioned, I'm just saying it's easy to put things out of proportion.

At the time I left Mary's blog, she had never said not to use those words in her comments. She said stop COMPARING the two.

My comments were just trying to point out that Simon wasn't comparing the two, he was trying to make a point and just using a crappy example. I tried to explain that to her in her comments, and in emails. She chose not to understand. I can't help that.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 08:32 PM

Ahh, but see, I spoke generally in my post. People reading it who had no idea about what was going on still had no idea of exactly what happened, or to whom. I didn't name names, and I didn't link to anyone, and I certainly could have had I wanted to. I didn't make it personal! That's one of the points I'm trying to make here. One can get their message across without becoming personal and smearing a person's name and reputation. See what I mean?

Alright, you have no boundaries on your blog. Fine. But it hurts people, Geoffrey. And the ones who said the worst things don't even link their names -- how chicken is that? What are they afraid of? But I know you have no power over that.

Do you treat the people in your life the same way? I mean ... do you call them names and disrespect their wishes? If someone asked you not to swear in the presence of their children, would you say screw you, I have a right to free speech and my opinions, and my opinion is that you're uptight and I can swear if I want to??? I don't think so. I think you're a bigger person than that. So why is it okay to do online? The people are still real people with real feelings. If you come by their blog for a visit and are told there are rules, how is that different?

As I stated before, I wrote that post in a very general way. I could have been much more precise in who I was talking about; and I could have trashed the people I considered to be wrong in this situation, but I didn't. THAT would have been perpetuating it. Plus I would have been doing the very thing that I was condemning.

I'm just sorry the whole thing happened. Life is too short, and friends too few and far between to be doing shit like this. Ya' know?

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 08:49 PM

I do know, and you are correct with a lot of what you said. I think I'm not expressing what happened clearly, though. Let me try again.

I DO respect people's wishes "in the real world". Even in my own home. At times, I even keep my opinions to myself in respect to another's feelings.

As I said before, I don't know what's on Mary's blog now, but here's how it happened.

First, Mary openly professes on her blog to welcome swearing and other opinions. If her forum were like yours, swear free and relatively tame, I would have worded things differently. Again, as I stated before, I try to conduct myself within the atmosphere of the blog I'm posting in.

Second, she misunderstood the poster. She accused him of likening gays to pedophiles. That was not the case. He was comparing the genetics of sexual habits. He just chose a really poor example. I never even posted my opinion on her blog. I was just trying to explain Simon's opinion in a way Mary would understand it. I even stated that it wasn't my opinion.

When she "lost it" and got really mad, I just stopped going to her page. I felt that was the right thing to do, since I was accomplishing nothing by being there. I took it to email instead. Then she got insulting, so I stopped answering her emails.

I assumed others stayed for the flame fest and it only got worse from there. I didn't, so that is only an assumption. I haven't been back since. I've heard we were all banned, anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 09:00 PM

Geoffrey, I did not edit your posts. Not one.

If there is a comment of yours you'd like to change, email me what you want it to say and let me know what comment it is and I'll change it for you IF THAT IS YOUR WISH.

I did NOT change any of your comments.

Now why don't you leave Leigh alone?

Thoughtfully shared by: BeerMary at July 10, 2003 09:13 PM

I'm done with it Mary, you can do what you'd like.

As for Leigh and I, I thought we were carrying on an intelligent conversation. She came to my blog and commented, that's how I got her link.

I'm sure she doesn't need you to guard dog her blog. Read the posts. I offered to take it to email. If she'd like me to stop commenting, she's free to tell me so.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 09:16 PM

Mary, it's okay, hon. (((hug)))

Geoffrey, this whole thing is a classic example of one misunderstanding leading to another, and another, etc. It's so difficult to articulate ones feelings online sometimes. There are no inflections in another's voice to help decipher what is meant by the words spoken. I just don't understand why the hate has to happen. Yeah, I get angry sometimes by what I read online, and if I let myself I could get pretty catty and bitchy, but the key word there is let. People don't seem to have any self-control. Either that, or they truly do enjoy this crap! I do think there are people out there who get off on being mean, just like in the real world.

But really, something has to be done to fix this. Isn't an online friendship worth it? Someone has to step up. There are those who are big enough to do so, and those who are not. There are those who can actually say "I'm sorry", and there are those who would rather die a thousand deaths than say those words. It takes two to tango -- but in this case it took a whole slew of people. Maybe everyone can own their responsibility in what happened?? I hope.

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 09:22 PM

Leigh,

You'd have to read my entire blog to understand how I think. I have absolutely nothing against Mary. Zero. Zip. I'm not not, and never was, the least bit angry with her. I've stated that in many of my posts.

Mary chose not to listen to my explanation.
Mary chose to insult me through email.
Mary chose to ban me from her blog.

All I've done is laugh at the situation, then give my opinion of it. I have every email in which I was attempting to explain to her that she misunderstood, and she was angry with me over something that never happened, that she just misread it.

She chose not to listen. When I realized I was not getting through to her, I chose to stop beating my head against the wall.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 09:33 PM

Well .... as I said, mega misunderstandings going on here. I don't want to rehash all of it. There is no point in doing that. What is the point, anyway? Is there one? I think the point was lost long ago.

So you stopped beating your head against the wall when you felt she wasn't listening to you, right? So then ... why the post on your site flaming her so badly? Was that just anger? Frustration? Is there a resolution to this? If, in your opinion, there is, what would it be?

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 09:49 PM

The post on my site was humor, to me. Granted, not to everyone. I rarely get angry about things online. She insulted me on her blog and in emails. She posted her side of the story on her blog and to her friends. I did the same to mine. It was nothing more than that.

As I said several times the problem is hers, not mine. By that I mean I'm not angry. No resolution is needed. She isn't banned on my page. She has my email address if she has something to say. It's over for me. The only time I post about it is when I see something written somewhere, like here, and I think it isn't the whole story, or if a new development arises that I think would be funny to blog about.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 10:01 PM

you know, i saw a post somewhere about all of this ... i think it was at trish's place, and she posted a comment saying she thought women reacted more than men when it came to online stuff. i tend to believe that. but that's no big surprise, since women are more emotional than most men.

so you posted that entry as humor .... but mary ended up taking her blog down for all intents and purposes, and has been deeply hurt by all the allegations made against her. so .... is it reasonable to infer that mary could apologize to you for reacting to what she misunderstood you saying, and you could apologize for saying things that deeply hurt her?? i mean ... even if you didn't intend it, it hurt like hell, ya' know? and i definitely think that no one should make the leap from "emotional" to "mentally unstable". that's just wrong, geoffrey. pure and simple.

as i've always said -- feelings are neither right nor wrong; they just are.

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 10:14 PM

Of course I apologize if she's hurt. I'll always apologize for hurting someone's feelings. Do you want my honest answer though? I don't really care either way, though. I stand by my thought that if someone is so emotionally distraught by something someone on the internet says, especially after sending them hate mail, that they are going to stop doing something they enjoy then they have issues.

On the other side of the coin, I really don't feel Mary owes me an apology. Seriously. She's free to do and say whatever she'd like. It doesn't bother me.

If she feels she has something to say to me, she has my email address and my blog is, and will remain, open to everyone.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 10:20 PM

i've seen a lot of people stop blogging, though, geoffrey, for very similar reasons. there was a time in my life that if things like what were said about mary were said about me, i couldn't have taken it. sometimes one must pull back and regroup, ya'know? especially if you've not experienced people saying pretty rotten stuff about you before. we all need to take a step back now and then. we just have different limits, that's all. it doesn't mean we have issues or mental problems .... it simply means our threshold is a bit lower than others. we're all different.

but to have someone you considered a friend, albeit an online friend, say hurtful things about you ... well, that's a tough one to take. really tough.

the bottom line is that there are a lot of people culpable in all of this. there are those who said things without malice; and those who did. i don't know that it matters all that much to disect it to find out who is who. what matters are genuine feelings about someone. i assume, from what you said, that your feelings about mary are neither here nor there at this time. is that right? i'm sorry to hear that. i really thought that even online relationships meant more than that.

*sigh* i think we've just about exhausted the issue. what do you think? for the record, i still think your post was out of line (like you didn't know that, huh). i hate seeing people arbitrarily hurt. it hurts me, too. but ... i don't think there is anything i can say or do to help make things better. that makes me sad. but ... if there ever is, lemme know, okay?

thanks for talking with me, geoffrey. i appreciate it.

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 10:33 PM

Sure. I agree with you 100%. If it's getting to someone, then they need to either realize it all amounts to crap, or take a step back until they can deal with it.

I guess having someone say mean things about you is tough for some people to take. I wasn't the least bit bothered by the mean and hurtful things Mary said to, or about, me. Trish wasn't bothered by the mean things I said about her. Neither was Vinny. (from the example I gave earlier) They both gave it right back. I like them just as much today as I did the day before that post.

If you are trying to mend fences, you really should be talking to Mary, not me. She's the one upset, and the one that did the banning. Mary is always welcome on my blog and in it's comments. Always will be.

As I said before, it's old news to me. It was old news right after it happened. The only time I post is to correct misconceptions about it to people that still consider it current news.

I'm sorry she's still upset about it. I'm sorry she's going to quit blogging over it. Maybe that's best for her for awhile though. I hope she gets over it someday.

Thoughtfully shared by: Geoffrey at July 10, 2003 10:42 PM

"getting over" usually always comes in time. i hope this is no exception. unfortunately, there will be another blog drama soon enough to take people's minds off of this one. makes me wonder if some people ever grow up. but that's a whole other blog entry! ;)

the sad and very real thing, though, is that even when it is forgotten by everyone else, it will always be with the person whom it hurt the most. even when something is "gotten over", it leaves scars.

anyway, as i said, thanks for talking with me.

Thoughtfully shared by: Leigh at July 10, 2003 10:51 PM